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Post by thompson on Feb 6, 2008 2:40:54 GMT -5
I spent this evening at a conservative forum listening to a speaker that really made me stop and think a lot about what's going on and the impact that it could have on our lives.
Dr. John Lott, author of Freedomnomics, talked about economics, everything from publishers to guns, abortion, crime, and medicine. Someone asked him this question: "Why, if econ is so simple, do republicans have such a hard time explaining it?" Dr. Lott answered by contrasting Bush's reaction to stimulating the economy to what Reagan did and how he explained it. I didn't hear the whole answer, but understood it.
The important thing I got was not that answer, but the question itself. We need to be able to communicate, and understand, what we believe. Lott made a lot of good points in his speech tonight and I wish I could have digested it all enough to pass it all on to everyone else I meet.
I encourage everyone here to seek out similar forums where they can meet local conservatives and not only get more involved, but also more informed.
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Post by Brad G on Feb 6, 2008 7:17:30 GMT -5
Short answer: economics is not simple!
I'll respond at more length later.
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Post by thompson on Feb 6, 2008 11:59:31 GMT -5
I'm an electrical engineer - econ is cheesecake to me!
But seriously, econ is not all that complicated if the person who is explaining is talking properly to the audience. The point I'm trying to make is that we need to be able to communicate effectively.
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Post by Brad G on Feb 6, 2008 13:17:22 GMT -5
You're right that we do have to be better communicators of economics. Two problems, though: - Really good economists are generally poor communicators, which means that the pop-economists like Friedman and Krugman are the only ones anybody listens to.
- We're not only fighting the Krugmans of the world, we're also fighting some serious American institutions.
Historically, most of America's institutions have been economically valuable. (By institutions, I mean mostly shared values and mores. For more information about institutions, see Douglass North.) Having institutions like our Puritan work ethic, free market ideals, and loyalty to God, country and family have enabled us to work within the confines of the neoclassical economic system. In other words, we've always been happy to make the changes needed to maximize profit and utility, while having a moral safety-net of some sort of Judeo-Christian understanding of ethics. If the neoclassical economic system worked in a vacuum, all countries would be successful. An under-developed country in the 1960's, for instance, could have seen what America was doing economically, copied that model, and had similar results (maximized utility and profit). Of course, it doesn't work like that. Other countries don't want to let go of their institutions, just like we don't want to let go of ours. And unfortunately, the institutions that allowed us to prosper are now under serious attack. Institutions like personal responsibility, the "American Dream," and individual liberty have been derided in the media and by the libs as everything from unfair and elitist to un-Christian, to racist. This attack has been ongoing and relentless, and it's now having an impact. For instance, our man Fred Thompson pointed out when he got into the race that we have the second-highest corporate tax rate in the developed world. The neoclassical economist would tell us the obvious thing to do is to lower that rate in hopes of having success similar to what rapidly-developing eastern European countries like Slovakia are having. But our newfound "populism" (i.e. disdain for job-creating corporations) keeps that from happening. After all, almost every action movie since the Cold War ended has included a "bad guy" straight from corporate America. Hollywood seems to think that the threat of terrorism pales in comparison to the threat of greedy CEO's. And so, in an effort not to be seen as too pro-business, the corporate tax rate stays high and businesses stay away. But politicians get re-elected, so they're happy. Our only hope in all of this is to communicate what happens "Beyond Stage One," as Thomas Sowell would say, and to work our butts off to protect the institutions that made America great. Institution-changing is long-term, hard stuff, but we have to be patient and diligent to get our country back. Thoughts? Did anybody read all the way down here?!?
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Post by gwtwins on Feb 6, 2008 13:56:31 GMT -5
Thoughts? Did anybody read all the way down here?!? I sure did! I am in probably the 2nd most liberal state in this once proud Union - New York. I am in this for the long haul and will do whatever I can to be in the fight to get our country back, especially in my state! It's getting to the point where I cannot afford to live here anymore so I may have to become involved in politics at the local level and work my way up! This is not really about me. It's about my country and my kids! I want to them (myself included) to view Washington as that shining city on the hill! Like many of us did in the 80's. I will do whatever is necessary to help get the country back there! Just like I did back then by serving in the Navy for 8 years! Peace Through Strength!! I was part of it then and I want to be part of it again!
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Post by fredheadpghpa on Feb 6, 2008 14:14:24 GMT -5
How did we get to this point, where has the GOP gone? There are 3 main candidates standing: McCain - a Democrat, Huckabee - A southern Baptist preacher from HOPE, Ark Home of Bill Clinton, and Mitt Romney - a "conservative" Governor from the state of Massachusetts and while we "Stand Strong" it makes you wonder what have the leaders of the GOP been doing for the last 8 years, besides spending! Fred, oh Fred, where have you gone?
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Post by thompson on Feb 6, 2008 15:05:57 GMT -5
good replies Brad and Gwtwins... I think we are all on the same page for our long term outlook on things here.
I think we should begin by addressing the actions of these "evil" corporations and turn it around to show people that the corporations aren't at all evil, but they are reacting to government policies that are causing it to be more profitable to say.... outsource and move our jobs overseas.... etc... The government is the root of the problems then the politicians who create the problem blame the corporation.
Also I agree with starting from the ground up, the local level, and that's what I'm intending to do. I live in Silicon Valley where I'm surrounded by liberals and high cost of living. I also served 8 years in the Army, starting with Reagan.
Bottom line is that we need to bring logic and reason into the debate on issues and force the discussion away from the emotional aspect that the media uses to stir up everyone. Let's get people to think through what they are proposing and what benefits or consequences will result from our choices. I think the best way to get people to think is not to tell them anything, but merely ask them about what they believe, and ask them what they think the result will be.
Asking does two things, gets the person to not only talk, but to think about what he's saying. Also gets the person to feel lke someone cares about what he has to say and what he thinks, which is true, we do care what people think and have to say.
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Post by krell on Feb 6, 2008 16:23:28 GMT -5
Wait a minute thompson, that sounds very reaganesque. Reaganomics were tough, at first, but necessary. Regardless of which President's lay claim to the prosperity we have enjoyed over the past twenty years, credit really is due to Reagan. Ceteris parabis is just a theory for looking at a model in a vacuum. Reality does not opperate that way. I find that most libs tend to cite Keynesian (sp) economics which is, basically, borrow from the future to pay for today. And it appears we are quickly being drawn back into that mentality. Perhaps the fact that the average Joe enjoyed a higher quality of life during this time span is what trips out and infuriates the libs that want to see the rise of the masters and the subjects.
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Post by uuebmeister on Feb 6, 2008 16:59:56 GMT -5
"But our newfound "populism" (i.e. disdain for job-creating corporations) keeps that from happening. "
Well sure, since the concept of private ownership prevents state run enterprises from funding socialized services, you have to tax more to make up for it. Why bother with dealing with day to day operations (with the inherent risk involved) when you can just tax the proceeds of those who weather the market.
Of course, if you go offshore to duck the taxes, you get villified at both ends.
When I was USC, Art Laffer was still on the faculty. So I got an early education on supply side economics, and an appreciation for the idea that a global economy would correct best when it is closer to a vacuum, as opposed to George Soros' vision of "a strong central international government to correct for the excesses of self-interest." Thus, a free market's 'Elasticity' has been replaced by conditions more conducive to the' Reflexivity' which has so enriched him.
Now Thompson, you mention Silicon Valley, that bastion of Private Sector innovation, (and Al Gore's internet, conviently exempt from taxation) which gave wind to the flying toasters which have taken to roasting the "establishment." Soros has banked on this suggestibility that gives us a model to understand the dotcom boom, and more recently the bubble now bursting in the mortgage banking industrly.
I'm in the middle of the other blue parts part of the red state of California, so I know where you're coming from. I am constantly given the opportunity to engage the liberal sheep who seem to be conforted by the concept of the nanny state chasing away the boogey men in suits, and I agree that it's productive to allow them to see the remifications of the parfy line they've bought into. Rather then conducting the equivalent of troll baiting, just breaking it all down to the brass tacks. Socialism vs. Capitalism = Who owns the factories. Darwin vs. Intelligent Design = Is evolution a random accident or maybe an creative process with some sort of wisdom involved. I could go on, and I will, but for now, let me add my thanks to Brad, and appreciation to you all for what I hope will continue as a meaningful diablog, giving rise to actions which will do more than just Stand Strong, but also move ahead to take control back of the government.
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Post by uuebmeister on Feb 6, 2008 17:04:31 GMT -5
BTW Brad, I really liked your points about institutions, (shared values and mores...aka Principles). It seems to me that this is what should rather be the balance against "the excesses of self-interest".
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Post by rinoHUNTER on Feb 6, 2008 21:15:37 GMT -5
Our only hope in all of this is to communicate what happens "Beyond Stage One," as Thomas Sowell would say, and to work our butts off to protect the institutions that made America great. Institution-changing is long-term, hard stuff, but we have to be patient and diligent to get our country back.
Thoughts? Did anybody read all the way down here?!?
This is my favorite thread here, and this part of Brad's post is my favorite part of it! This is what I am talking about. Action!!! Nothing worth having comes easy and Freedom ain't Free.
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Post by Brad G on Feb 6, 2008 21:45:46 GMT -5
FYI-- Jed Babbin is predicting a very cold reception including lots of Boos for John McCain at CPAC. The best part of the article is a Reagan quote from the 1975 CPAC: “A political party cannot be all things to all people. It must represent certain fundamental beliefs which must not be compromised to political expediency or simply to swell its numbers.” That's gotta sting John McCain!
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Post by Maggie in Indiana on Feb 6, 2008 21:55:29 GMT -5
good replies Brad and Gwtwins... I think we are all on the same page for our long term outlook on things here. I think we should begin by addressing the actions of these "evil" corporations and turn it around to show people that the corporations aren't at all evil, but they are reacting to government policies that are causing it to be more profitable to say.... outsource and move our jobs overseas.... etc... The government is the root of the problems then the politicians who create the problem blame the corporation. Also I agree with starting from the ground up, the local level, and that's what I'm intending to do. I live in Silicon Valley where I'm surrounded by liberals and high cost of living. I also served 8 years in the Army, starting with Reagan. Bottom line is that we need to bring logic and reason into the debate on issues and force the discussion away from the emotional aspect that the media uses to stir up everyone. Let's get people to think through what they are proposing and what benefits or consequences will result from our choices. I think the best way to get people to think is not to tell them anything, but merely ask them about what they believe, and ask them what they think the result will be. Asking does two things, gets the person to not only talk, but to think about what he's saying. Also gets the person to feel lke someone cares about what he has to say and what he thinks, which is true, we do care what people think and have to say.
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Post by rayman on Feb 6, 2008 21:55:47 GMT -5
Regardless of our passionate posts and enthusiasm, one fact stands tall! Fred drew the line in SC. Was it the line YOU were looking for or the line Fred drew? Fred did it his way and left after 2 terms in the senate! MSM and general public dumb masses think Fred is a lazy actor from law and order that said he wants to be POTUS! In SC Fred pounded the podiun 3 times and(fire in the belly) yelled STAND STRONG STAND STRONG STAND STRONG!!!!!!!
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Post by rinoHUNTER on Feb 6, 2008 21:58:22 GMT -5
Lord knows, I wish I could be there. It would be boos alright. Loouuud and clear!!! The only thing consistent about Jaun McChange are the lies he spews. Jed has some ideas for Ole McChange, and he could do them. But they would all be lies. The Party is just not that stupid or gullible. His record and his friends are liberal. Period.
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